015: When Your Husband Is Not Attracted To You

LISTEN TO THE SHOW:

One of the most common problems I hear from wives is, “My husband is not attracted to me anymore.”

It’s always heartbreaking because I remember how lousy that felt.

Like me, these women usually think the problem is either that she married the wrong guy or that her weight, her age, or her post-baby body has made her less beautiful.

And it’s painful to think you don’t look good enough to get a pat on the butt or bedroom eyes anymore.

But how she looks is simply not the issue. Nor is it that she married the wrong guy.

Those weren’t the problems in my marriage when my husband was acting repulsed instead of attracted to me.

Something else entirely was going on, and it was a huge relief to finally discover it and get those butt pats and bedroom eyes back.

The problem was actually pretty simple to fix, and the fix had so many other benefits for me.

On today’s episode of The Empowered Wife Podcast we’re talking about what to do when your husband is not attracted to you.

  • I’ll reveal what the real problem is and why it’s not what you think.
  • My guest Tess was devastated, heartbroken and shocked when her husband fell in love with her best friend, who was a marriage therapist. Her husband was so cold and unloving that she just wanted to leave. Then again…she didn’t really want to leave because she wanted her husband back. Then she made the best decision she ever made. She started doing something that put an end to her insecurities and had her husband declare his undying love for her and her alone. She’s going to share exactly how she did that.
  • The Worst Relationship Advice of the Week is something that just can’t be done. It sounds good in theory…but it’s impossible! And if there’s anything you don’t need when you’re struggling in your relationship it’s impossible advice that’s a setup for failure.

INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT:

Laura Doyle: My guest test was devastated heartbroken and shocked when her husband fell in love with her best friend who was a marriage therapist. Her husband was so cold and unloving that she just wanted to leave him. But then again, she didn’t really want to leave him because she wanted her husband back.

Then she made the best decision she ever made. And she started doing something that put an end to her insecurities and had her husband declares undying love for her and for her alone.

And she was able to put it behind her and choose her faith in her marriage and now she sees how he just wants to please her. She’s going to tell us all back her journey. Welcome to the empowered Wife Podcast Tess.

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Tess James: Thank you so much, Laura. It’s just a pleasure to be here.

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Laura Doyle: Will take us back to the bad old days, there was a there was a day when you

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Tess James: Realize your husband had fallen for someone else knows about that.

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Tess James: Yes. Well, this was quite an amazing experience because I was with a friend. I’d gone up to a friend’s house and we go for a walk and

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Tess James: We come back to the car and I was standing there talking to her, and then all of a sudden I had this

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Tess James: Massive bolt go through my body and it said, My husband was down at my best friend’s house and I just, I was talking to my friend and I thought, Oh my god, I can’t

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Tess James: I can’t tell her what just happened. And I just heard myself going hurrying up the conversation and going, yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Yes. All right, I’ll see you tomorrow. And I hopped in the car, my

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Tess James: heart was beating so fast and I drove straight down to my best friend’s house and there was my husband’s car and I went inside my mouth was so dry. My heart was out of my chest.

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Tess James: And they they were in the kitchen solving all the world’s problems. And I thought, Oh my God, this is this is this is true, like I didn’t. I had no idea. And so I

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Tess James: I pretended to be like the goddess of fun and light and that hey, you know, I didn’t. I hadn’t just had this message that my husband was in love with my best friend. So I hit save on my

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Tess James: Husband’s knee and others. Laughing away with them. And I was pretending, but inside. I was just having this huge

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Tess James: Breakdown like God. It’s true, my husband’s in love with my best friend. Anyway, we lift and I said to my husband. Are you in love with my best friend, because this is just what happened to me.

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Tess James: And he said, Yes, I am. And I was just devastated and I drove back down to my best friend. And I said, my husband’s in love with you. And he said, she said, I’ll pick them in the knees, and I was just crying and crying to hear. And then I went back home and then began the journey of

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Tess James: Of

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Tess James: Really wanted to leave. But I wanted to stay but I didn’t know how I was going to get through it now and so

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Laura Doyle: I mean,

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Laura Doyle: You did want to leave.

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Laura Doyle: But you also want to stay. I mean,

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Laura Doyle: Yes, that kind of a daily battle. As you know, this was unfolding. What kinds of conversations were you having with your husband around this.

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Tess James: Door. It was a really it was it was a daily battle. It was like I was asking. I was continually asking my husband.

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Tess James: You know, do you want to stay with me.

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Tess James: Or do you want to be with her. I know you want to be with her because she’s prettier and more intelligent and more this and more back. Now I just wore him out. I wore him out with this conversation, just like the same conversation when you keep asking, does my bundle begin. These pants.

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Tess James: You know, it’s like just it was daily. It was a daily onslaught. And he said to me, he said, Ts.

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Tess James: I can’t take this anymore. And that was the point when I realized I had to. I chose to

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Tess James: Not mention her name anymore. I made a decision in my mind to not mention her name anymore. And there was such a challenge because all these thoughts would come up

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Tess James: And I gotta wonder piece, thinking about your now I wonder if he wants to be with you now or what would she be doing now, or all yeah I could talk to myself so

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Tess James: That’s what I did. I just didn’t mention her name anymore. I decided that I did want to be with my husband and he gave me a clue. He said, I can’t handle this anymore. So I somehow have intuition and the skill to to just not mentioned who name anymore more and

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Tess James: Work on my own self with and just say to myself, he wants to be with me, he, he wants to be with me. He’s here, you know, but

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Tess James: Even then, I didn’t see that as a sign from my husband that he was still with me and he wanted to be with me.

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Tess James: Not like I understand it now. And so I just had to keep, keep it was like a

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Tess James: It was like kind of climbing up a slippery slide I get to the top and then slide back down and then get to the top and slide back down again. Oh my god. It was exhausting, but with practice. I built that muscle and I started

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Tess James: I could you know we started to sort of have more closeness.

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Tess James: And, you know, there wasn’t always that page look on his face when I would have mentioned her name. So, things got a little bit better. You know, and

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Tess James: And I just had to, I had will I chose faith over fear and I did have a daily battle with it, but at some. It’s what but once I started building that muscle. It’s sort of got easier and easier, but I still knew there was something missing. What about inside of you that

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Tess James: Was just

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Laura Doyle: so mad at him to I mean did, didn’t you also have days where you want to throw him out.

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Yeah.

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Laura Doyle: Wow.

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Tess James: I’m just wondering. Yeah, yeah.

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Tess James: Yeah, yeah, there was there was like

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Tess James: I will. I would just, I think you know that there would be some DOORS SLAMMING like I would just

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Tess James: I would feel, you know, when I was being being vulnerable and kind of forgiving of him. And then he’d come to me, then I would feel angry with him again because it would be like, how do you, how do you like

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Tess James: Had did you think you can just, you know, come up to me and be loving to me. And what about what you did. So it would activate that all memory again. Yeah. So then I get angry turn away not be a real porcupine and cold and

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Tess James: Just reject His love it, you know, time and time again and and and once again I sort of

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Tess James: I realized that I just couldn’t keep doing that because that was pushing him away and he and now what I know now you know that he was, he, he wanted to be with me, but I just couldn’t still see it.

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Tess James: Yes, so I so I was keep I was doing the I was pushing him away. And yeah, everything

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Laura Doyle: Yeah, there’s like a flip flop there, right, like I’m

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Tess James: Like you, you know, you don’t deserve me and then like a weight do you

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Tess James: Do you want to stay sure you

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Laura Doyle: Like kind of one

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Laura Doyle: I mean, I think this is the human experience in your situation. I think this is

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Laura Doyle: I mean, so many women in your shoes have gone through that that roller that very roller coaster you’re describing, so I think it’s

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Laura Doyle: Just a very thank you for explaining it so authentically so so you know so what what happened. I mean, how did you, how did you, you’re still married and have that happen.

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Yeah.

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Tess James: Well, well, just like you said, or, you know, it’s like, how dare you, but I want to have the you but I want you. Yes. So, so I guess it was it was the decision.

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Tess James: For me to like I said before, not mentioned her name and think about how can I make myself happy. How can I

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Tess James: I actually, I actually started saying things. I actually started saying to my husband. Thank you. I remember that I started saying

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Tess James: Thank you, when he did things I and I I somehow I somehow clicked on to this thing of complimenting him rather than criticizing him.

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Tess James: And I remember the day I started. I remember when he had a shirt on and i i i wanted to compliment him, but I just felt so

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Tess James: Vulnerable saying it, but I knew I wanted to stop criticizing and start complimenting. So I said to them, You look great in that shirt. I felt really

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Tess James: self conscious and and vulnerable. You know, it’s like you’re like yeah, I’ve never done it before. And so

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Tess James: Yes, that’s, that’s, I remember there. I just started saying thank you in complimenting rather than criticizing I just remember there. And so we ever I could

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Tess James: I started complimenting so you know the warmth started coming back into a relationship and and he started saying nice things to me and

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Tess James: You know, I still got a little bit triggered when he got really lovey dovey in that little memory combat, you know, how could you, but, but, you know, that’s what I chose to just let go off and just receive

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Tess James: I didn’t do it 100%

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Tess James: But yeah, that’s how it kind of started missing. Did he

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Laura Doyle: Did he ever say I’m leaving you for her.

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Tess James: No, he actually didn’t he actually didn’t say that he but he did. He he he did that he was thinking about it, he, he was thinking about it. He didn’t say he was going to leave me, but he didn’t know whether he was going to stay

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Tess James: So that, yeah.

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Tess James: It was a little bit of a tightrope there for a moment. And I think, you know, if I had carried on pushing him away. Yeah, but, but not changing what I was doing, then I’m pretty sure he would have chosen her, but he actually wants to be with me. But he was still it was still considering it.

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Laura Doyle: Yes, yes. And so, and so you were

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Laura Doyle: Really you were fighting for your marriage at this point.

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Tess James: Actually I was fighting for my marriage. Laura and and that’s one thing that my husband said to me that made him stay that he felt like I was fighting for my marriage and I never knew that I never knew that I never knew that he saw

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Tess James: Those things that I was doing and saying to Him. We’re fighting for my marriage and he felt wanted and and yeah, that was a real eye opener for me.

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Laura Doyle: How cell was an eye opener.

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Tess James: Because I thought that he knew that I loved him.

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Tess James: Yeah, I thought that he knew that I loved him. And now I realize I was being very unloving, I wasn’t being I wasn’t showing him any level.

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Laura Doyle: Mean prior prior to this break

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Tess James: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah.

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Laura Doyle: Yeah, and so and so you so you

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Tess James: Managed you

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Laura Doyle: He rebuilt from what you had you started complimenting and then you also started seeking some support for your marriage. Tell us about that.

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Tess James: I did I was some I was well for me. I read a lot of books and listen to things on YouTube could change things and

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Tess James: Then also, I

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Tess James: I felt like there was something missing. So I sort of was dragging my husband along to all of these marriage counseling things and

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Tess James: And he would go you know he he would come along. He didn’t want to. He didn’t want to

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Tess James: But people and he did want to please me. I understand that. Now, and there was one particular one we went to. It was a treat. And we had to drive to it, you know, and my hope.

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Tess James: My God, I just can see my husband driving along thinking, our God. You know, like just another thing, another one. And when we got there.

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Tess James: There was this man and wife, they were the marriage therapist and they this beautiful dog that was probably the nicest thing of the session. Anyway, now, actually, that wasn’t than us when we got into the session.

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Tess James: They said, Okay, now what we want you to do what you did say something like 20 things that you love about your wife or your husband and Dave just said.

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Tess James: All these most amazing things to me and I just couldn’t take them in. I still didn’t believe them. And I’m like, oh my god, I, you know, when I look back now and think

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Tess James: How he just was he just loved me so much, and I just couldn’t take these these words. And I was like, oh my god, that is, you’re like a poet. That’s amazing. And then I had to say my things

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Tess James: But, um, yeah. So there was lots of it, but it didn’t, you know, there was still something missing. It didn’t change.

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Tess James: It my ability to receive love inside of me or my ability to to find my joy, rather than expecting him to give it to me. I had a lot of expectations about him making me happy. But I didn’t realize the secret was for me to make myself happy, even though I was looking for it.

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Laura Doyle: And did you have a have some things that you wanted him to do differently in the marriage to it sounds like

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Tess James: Right, yeah.

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Laura Doyle: Why would you be bringing him to these marriage counseling.

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Tess James: Things right it’s right. Yeah, I just wanted him to change because I thought, you know, I was perfect. I just remember thinking that, but you know if he changed. I would you know our marriage would be perfect and you know I wanted them to be more romantic I wanted him to

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Tess James: You know, be be a new age man like

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Tess James: Think the same things that I did about how I was parenting and and yeah, all of it, but he should, you know, do things my way. And because my way was the hallway.

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Laura Doyle: Yes, really.

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Laura Doyle: Yes I relate to the someone so

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Laura Doyle: All right, and so you so you continue to seek solutions to get into change.

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Laura Doyle: And

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Tess James: What happened. Yeah, I continue to seek solutions and

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Tess James: And

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Tess James: I sort of had this this epiphany that you know it was there was something inside of me and

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Tess James: Then what happened was that Laura Doyle popped up in my Facebook feed page and I bought the book and I read it. And I thought, Oh my goodness, I can. This is what I’ve been looking for this is, this is the difference between

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Tess James: men and woman for a start, you know, this is and this is and the power is in my hands I I run the tone of the relationship and I just started having all these flashbacks about

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Tess James: Dave saying, What do you want, what do you want and you know and and in your book, Laura. You know, you talk about stating your desires and I think that was a huge

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Tess James: Piece that was missing in our relationship that I didn’t know my desires and

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Tess James: And like I say, when I flashbacks always times and dates it. What do you want, what do you want. And I was like, I don’t know what I want. I don’t know. And so I was unbelievable.

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Tess James: And and i remember Dave saying to me, You’re. You’re unbelievable. I can’t please you, I can’t. These you and him and I read your words. It was like please ability. Oh my god, you know, state your desires and

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Tess James: Wow, that was just that was a huge, huge awareness for me, you know, there was this which book. Did you read

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Tess James: I read the Empowered life improvise.

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Laura Doyle: Okay.

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Tess James: And so

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Laura Doyle: And so you started realizing, like, oh, I need to own my desires and

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Tess James: Say,

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Laura Doyle: And so this is something you started doing

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Tess James: I did and and you know it was really, really uncomfortable or and actually I yeah it was that was super uncomfortable because I thought

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Tess James: I felt very self conscious and very vulnerable saying, I would love, I would love to. I’d love to go for coffee. I’d love to.

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Tess James: I would love to have a soft link or I would love to just really simple things and and I just was aware of how self conscious. I felt and Dave said right let’s go, let’s go and get a coffee and

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Tess James: And and when he is taking it from here and say, Where do you want to go, and that’s what I changed after reading the book because I always say, I don’t know.

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Tess James: I don’t know. That was my mantra and that drove Dave nuts or he’d start to drive someone I’d go on. I think I want to go, oh my god. So I really getting

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Tess James: So yeah, I was a nightmare. So getting in touch with my my desires was huge there in your book, you know, and even now, I’m still working on that today, or that’s been

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Tess James: That’s, you know, that’s always been really hard for me because it’s like, well, I’ll just do what you do, you know, you know, I would say, do you want to go to the movies or

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Tess James: Give me saying, I would love to go to the movies or do you want to go. I had a terrible, terrible habit of saying it. So out of your book that was that, you know, that’s one of the the amazing skills. That’s really helped me because that was where I was, I was

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Tess James: I just had an absolute blind spot for my desires. I just, I didn’t know that I could sort of have desires, even though I used to have desires. You know, I want to go to aerobics or I want to, but I didn’t do it in a

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Tess James: Bad way I just say, you know, I’ve got a I’ve got to go like, I didn’t understand that that that was looking after myself, but I did it in a porcupine way, whereas now.

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Tess James: I understand young life and I’d love to.

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Tess James: You know, I think I’m going to book a joke, of course, or something. I’d love to go to yoga. It’s just really getting in touch with what I want with what makes me feel good and Dave’s never stop me my battle cry to was like

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Tess James: You stopping me. It never stopped me. I stopped myself. It didn’t know

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Laura Doyle: So you decided to take your training with this further.

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Tess James: And so, Laura. That’s the thing. Like I I saw it and I thought, Oh my God, I just want to do the training. I want to be a relationship coach. I want to, I just want to turn the volume up on everything.

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Tess James: And I knew that this would be, and also share with other woman and this these amazing skills that just helped to in my marriage around, you know,

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Tess James: What you thought to yourself into

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Tess James: But settler

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Laura Doyle: You almost stopped yourself.

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Tess James: I almost stopped myself and that’s. Yes, yes. I almost stopped myself. So what I did was I

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Tess James: I thought I want to do this training come hell or high water. And so I thought,

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Tess James: How am I going to ask my husband, because I had all the evidence that I, I just couldn’t do it. You know, we just had a lot of financial pressures and HE’D EVEN SAID, YOU KNOW, HE MIGHT BE

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Tess James: He might not be getting renewing his job. And I thought, I can’t ask him. I can’t ask them, but I thought I’ve got to do it. So I saw that I could have a discovery call with Kathy.

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Tess James: And I run her up and we started talking and all of a sudden I started freaking out. And I said, I said to Kathy, look at the

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Tess James: I i I’m sorry for taking up your time. I actually, I can’t do this. I really wanted to, and I realized as I’m talking to you. Now I can’t do it on. Sorry. I’ll see you later.

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Tess James: And Kathy said to me, Oh,

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Tess James: You’re too afraid to state your desires and I

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Tess James: Yes, and I got off the phone and I thought, Oh my God, I just here, I just kept hearing Kathy’s voice, you’re too afraid to state your desires. And that was, you know, that was one of the things that was pivotal in changing my marriage. And I thought,

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Tess James: I’ve got to do this and the timeframe for the training was coming out. And so I sent my husband’s message. And I said, I would love to do my relationship coach training. It’s just it really resonates with me and I

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Tess James: I just know that I’m you know, it’s the next level for me and it’s what I’ve always believed and I just love it. I found what I’m looking for. And, and he takes me back and he said, yep. Do it. You’d be good at.

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Laura Doyle: History. So you do

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Laura Doyle: you’re enrolled in coach training.

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Laura Doyle: You didn’t stop yourself. And of course, your husband had no intention of stuff for you. It sounds like

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Laura Doyle: And how did that impact.

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Your relationship.

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Tess James: Or, well, you know, the first thing that I that I started doing was that

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Tess James: I realized that I was being his mother and I i would do everything for him. You know that bit that was taking things to the next level. I didn’t

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Tess James: I didn’t sort of understand that until I started being in the practical terms and hearing other people’s stories and deepening my understanding the skills and so the first thing, actually, I started doing was

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Tess James: I stopped putting his clothes away because he he’s away for quite a few. He’s away for three weeks in three weeks.

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Tess James: And he’d always have this big pile of clothes on his chair and I and it used to really annoyed me because I wanted to be able to look how I wanted it to look and

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Tess James: I stopped doing it because I thought, My God, it’s, it’s so mothering, you know, I just, I want to be his lover not as mother and and and also I stopped.

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Tess James: Looking for things. He said, Where’s my glasses with my, have you seen my interest and my mom was an expert at helping dead like

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Tess James: He would say, have you seen my in before he could even say what he was wanting to look for she found her

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Tess James: So I, I was good at that. I was so good at that night and I stopped doing it. That was really uncomfortable because I see Dave wandering around looking for, not that I could help them find that I know I can find it.

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Tess James: I could put his clothes away from us anyway when he came home, he, he

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Tess James: He, he would put his clothes away, but every time it happened. He was always trying to close. If you tell me which way. So, and then the third time he came home, he said, I, I get it.

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Tess James: I get it literally said to me, we laughed, and I, I knew what he was like, it’s like you’re not going to put my clothes away are you

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Tess James: And he was mad.

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Tess James: It was playful play. He was playful Laura and you know that’s what’s that another thing that’s that’s that’s since, you know, doing the training is I really wanted that playfulness and my relationship. And that’s what I’ve really

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Tess James: You know, turn the volume up on, I suppose, because it’s so much more playful and and he’s playful and I started singing and playful teeth and

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Tess James: And just, you know, subjects that might have been touchy before could just put this playful element to it, you know, and

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Tess James: Yeah, I mean, sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Tess James: Love it. I love it. So, so if you could talk to yourself back

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Tess James: Maybe just before this breakdown before he fell in love with your friend.

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Laura Doyle: Anything to her. What would you say

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Tess James: Boy, this. There’s so many different things that I could say, but I guess the

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Tess James: The thing that I would say probably is that my husband wanted to please me all the time and I just didn’t see it. I couldn’t see it.

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Tess James: I literally couldn’t see it and even, you know, my friends would say to me, your husband’s amazing he takes a kid’s dad. He cleans the stove, he does this, he does there. Oh my god, I was so ungrateful and you’d I didn’t think I was

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Tess James: Yeah, I just, I was unplayable. I realized that now. Yeah.

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Laura Doyle: Why would you say to a woman who’s maybe in the situation that you know this heartbreaking devastating shock of finding out that her husband is

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Laura Doyle: In love with someone else. What advice do you have for her.

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Tess James: Um,

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Tess James: I would say

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Tess James: Get some coaching and, you know, really.

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Tess James: Get, get the link to Laura Doyle and but but i think that the main thing is for me like personally i think it’s it’s come back, come back onto

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Tess James: Onto your page. Like, I came back onto my page and what, what can I control. What can I do for me half and I make

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Tess James: myself feel better because I can’t control what my husband’s doing thinking or feeling. So how can I change what I’m feeling and what I’m thinking. And that’s where the empowerment is that’s that’s

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Tess James: Bits where I found you know surrendering surrendering to what I have control of and I had control of what I thought about myself how I how I

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Tess James: How I responded to anything that my husband was doing my pen back to my page, you know, to, to grow myself love to me. How do I feel, what do I want it’s it’s a challenge, but it’s

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Tess James: But that’s really the answers I you know that the empowerment is to surrender to surrender to what he’s doing or what he’s thinking and to get in touch with. Who am I, what what how do I feel and what why won’t really know and and that’s what I did. I just got I’ve dug into getting support.

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Tess James: For me, how can I, how can I take good care of me. How can I make this painful as is even though I didn’t want to do those things. How can I get back to me, you know, because that’s all I can control.

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Laura Doyle: And what is your relationship like now. Now they

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Tess James: Are Laura. Wow. It’s, um, you know,

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Tess James: This. Well, my husband’s just surprised me with a trip to Melbourne and I had to cancel my partner client coaching thing tomorrow flying to Melbourne tomorrow and and and

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Tess James: And lots of holidays. But, you know,

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Tess James: And he’s always saying thank you to me. He’s always making the bead and and saying, Would you like to go out for dinner and

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Tess James: And, you know, sometimes he’s still irritates me. You know, I still think oh my god, he’s so controlling but now I’ve got the skills I can just turn it thought around

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Tess James: And and I did it the other day, I thought he really irritated me and I thought he was being controlling it. So I changed it around my system. So in control and

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Tess James: You know, it was. It’s true. It’s true. And, and we got in the car.

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Tess James: And it was hard for me to say that because I just really wanted to say to him, you so controlling because I felt so irritated. But I didn’t want to scratch that.

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Tess James: itch that scratch scratch that itch. I didn’t want to do this and it’s not. Anyway, so I see them yourself and control and anyway. We’ve got in the car and we drove down town when we got out of the car.

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Tess James: I was on the pavement and he hopped out and then when he stood beside me. He pushed me over to the left to the inside of the pavement just what this thing does it was so six years, like, Oh my God, it just happened like

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Tess James: It felt so 60 and I’m even feeling kind of like a little bit shy about feeling that how sexy was that I wanted to tell him, and I just couldn’t even quite tell them, because

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Tess James: As of reveling in this lovely feeling of like carpet felt good it felt so good. I felt so loved. I just, I was smiling inside. It was, you know, you hear these things and you think, yeah, that really happened to me. And that’s so that’s the, that’s what my relationships like now.

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Laura Doyle: I love it and I mean there was, it’s to come from the precipice of a breakup, like you did. Right.

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Tess James: There was a

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Laura Doyle: Moment when your marriage was definitely in peril and to create this where he’s taking you on romantic getaway now and

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Laura Doyle: He puts the hand on you know

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Laura Doyle: On this call me back or wherever it was. And just sends electricity all through your body

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Tess James: It’s

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Laura Doyle: It’s quite a transformation such a beacon of hope for women who are maybe going through the same thing and want to know what does the future hold. What can it hold what’s possible for me and I think

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Laura Doyle: Your message is very

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Laura Doyle: Loud and clear.

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Tess James: Absolutely. Laura, I think, you know, there’s a there’s a book and the title is a successful marriage is falling in love again and again, I think it was probably written by you and the different guys

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Tess James: under different names you know and and that’s that’s what skills have Mr relationship coach training have bought. It’s like, you know, I can just keep

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Tess James: I can keep

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Tess James: Really just changing

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Tess James: I run the tone of our marriage. I understand it now. So you know how I am. How I am is is how my relationships going to be, and it’s it’s it is so empowering and there is so much hope it’s I think anything anyone at any stage, if anything,

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Tess James: Can can can change with the skills I you know yet my marriage was damaged. It’s really

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Laura Doyle: It’s a remarkable story. And thank you so much for coming on to share it with us. This has been wonderful.

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Tess James: Thank you so much, Laura. It’s my pleasure. Like later.


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